Do Bananas Make Your Smoothie Less Healthy? With Professor Gunter Kuhnle

Can bananas change the nutritional value of your smoothie?

Bananas are often considered one of the healthiest fruits you can eat. But what happens when they're blended with berries or other foods rich in beneficial plant compounds?

In this episode, Dr. Eeks talks with Professor Gunter Kuhnle, Professor of Nutrition and Food Science, about his research examining how bananas may affect the absorption of flavan-3-ols—naturally occurring compounds found in foods like berries, cocoa, tea, and apples that have been associated with cardiovascular and cognitive health.

Together, they discuss:

•  What flavan-3-ols are and why researchers study them 
•  The enzyme in bananas (polyphenol oxidase) and why it matters 
•  How the smoothie study was conducted 
•  Why the banana smoothie resulted in lower flavan-3-ol absorption than the berry-only smoothie 
•  Why this doesn't mean bananas are "bad" or that they destroy nutrients 
•  Whether other fruits may have similar effects 
•  The challenges of measuring diet and nutrient intake in nutrition research—and why nutrition studies can be difficult to interpret 
•  Common misconceptions about nutrition research and what individual studies can (and cannot) tell us 
•  Tips for building a smoothie if maximizing flavan-3-ol intake is your goal 
•  How food combinations—not just individual foods—may influence nutrition 

Take-home message: Bananas remain a nutritious food. This study simply suggests that if your goal is to maximize absorption of flavan-3-ols, it may matter what foods you combine together. More broadly, this episode explores why nutrition science is often more complex than headlines suggest—and why interpreting nutrition research requires careful measurement and context.

Disclaimer: This episode is for educational purposes only and should not be considered medical or nutritional advice.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of Causes or Cures. I'm Dr. Eeks, your host, and thanks for joining in. So, do you drink smoothies? This one is for you, then. Do you think adding a banana to your smoothie changes how much nutrition you absorb? In this episode, I'm joined by Professor Gunter Kunla. He's a nutrition scientist whose research sparked headlines after finding that bananas may reduce the absorption of certain beneficial compounds called flavanols when blended in smoothies. And the flavanols were in fruit, right? So think about that. We all kind of do that, mix bananas with fruits. A lot of us do. So we discuss what flavanols are, why they're important, what the study actually found, what it didn't find, whether you should stop putting bananas in your smoothies, and why the future of nutrition may be about more than just individual foods. It may also be about how foods interact with one another and improving the measurements in nutritional research, which he talks about a lot. Alright, so take a sip of your smoothie if you have one in front of you. And give me a few seconds while we connect to Gunter. All right, everybody, we are connecting with Professor Gunter Kumla, and we're gonna talk about bananas and the smoothie and what sort of things we should put in the smoothies. But first, Gunter, thanks so much for joining in. And can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Well, yeah, of course. Thank you for having me. So my name is Gunther. I'm a professor of nutrition and food science at the University of Reading in the UK. So we're just a little bit outside of London. If you fly out of Heathrow, look down, that's where we are. My research interest is in a very extreme way, I'm I'm interested in measuring what people are eating. That's really my sort of research area. And from that on a lot of interesting questions come. Because if you eat something, does it also end up in your body? Is it a taken up or is it destroyed before you eat it? Because it's fine, and that's what we're going to talk about, I think. It's it's really an interesting question. You know, if you eat something, but what ends up in your body? Because that is what is really important for your health. So my my basic idea of measuring what are people eating is then sort of expands in different subquestions.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Okay, that makes sense. So that kind of answers, I guess, my next question, which was how did you get interested in studying like bananas and smoothies? And I say that because that's when I was clicking on headlines, I was like, what is everybody talking about like bananas and smoothies?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yes, so that's sort of the the the second part of my research. Um have been since I think since I finished my PhD, I have been working with polyphenols. And especially flavanols. So flavanols are compounds found in mainly tea, in in a lot of pom fruits and berries. And well, I always need to be careful. I believe that they're healthy, but there's a lot of data suggesting that they're beneficial for health. I think I think that's that's something which I can say. I know in nutrition, a lot of people overclaim the health benefits of things. But there have been a number of small studies, there has been a large randomized control trial, the Cosmos study, which showed beneficial effects. So I think saying that they're probably healthy, I can. Now polyphenols have the interesting property that how do you eat a lot of people would eat berries, for example, a smoothie. So the questions come if you eat them smoothies, do they still stay in there? And then what do people put in smoothies? Bananas. I used to do that. And that that is sort of one of the funny things of doing science. So one side of your brain knows obviously banana contains phenyl oxidase, obviously banana destroys all of this. But you completely ignore this when you make a banana smoothie. You put the bananas into your berry smoothie and don't really think what is what is going to happen. And essentially, based on such a assumption, you know, how do people eat this? Came this this idea. Well, let's try what happens if we if we make a banana smoothie with berries.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Okay, okay. And so let's just drive this home for our listeners. So the berries have the flavanols, which in the which there's evidence to say they're healthy for you. Yes. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

They reduce cardiovascular disease risk. That's I think something we are reasonably certain. As I said, I'm always careful to make bold claims because in nutrition everyone does it.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I know.

unknown 4:38

I know.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

And I appreciate your approach. Okay, so you have the berries, and then you have you just mentioned something, the polyphenol oxidase. Yes. And that's in the bananas.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Can you elaborate on what that is uh for the of course, that's an enzyme, and it's not just in bananas, it's in apples, for example, as well. That's what makes them brown.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

In what?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Sorry? That makes the apples brown.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Oh, the apples, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

But if you have an apple, you know, then you cut them open and they go brown. So the polyphenol oxidase is nothing really exotic as an enzyme, but bananas are quite high in polyphenol exodase. And apples contain polyphenols, bananas don't really contain many polyphenols or no flavonools. So it was an interesting question. If if you put the bananas in there, if you then homogenize them in a in a smoothie, do these phenol oxidase really react with the with the with the flavonools or not? It could well be, you know, you you tear everything apart and you have a system where the enzyme just dies and and nothing happens. So that was really the question.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

What was your hypothesis before you did the experiment?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Well, I think we assumed it's going to digest them. I think the question was how much of the polyphenol will survive? Because if you put it in a blender and you you eat it, it's not a long time for it to react. Smoothies are often cold, that would inhibit a reaction. So it was more sort of the idea it's going to be less, but not necessarily nothing.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Okay, can you describe for our listeners how you did your experiment, like as simply as you can?

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Well, in just sorry, do the birds outside disturb you?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

No, I like birds.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Because there are a lot of magpies fighting with something.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Oh, they're fighting? No, I'm a big birder. I just got a bird cam. Um, I put it up at near my parents' house and I'm obsessed.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Oh, I see you. Okay. I just I just was wondering whether it interferes with your with the recording.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

So No, it doesn't. You're fine.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

I have like trucks outside, but I could quite noisy. They have young, so no, no, the the birds. Yeah, yeah, they have young and so they have sort of I think the parents despair a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Oh yeah, the parents are anxiety and yeah, and it's hot there.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And we don't have air conditioning.

unknown 6:52

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

No, well, I I don't mind. It's it's it's quite nice at the moment, but yeah, no, they're sort of you too well, but they're about four, but they're they're quite noisy. No, yeah, okay. Anyway, what's so what what we've done is is you you we've created smoothies with with bananas and with with with berries, and we let people consume them. So people drank the smoothies, and then we measured how much polyphenols end up in the body. So because that's that's really the interesting thing. Um yes, of course, we can measure it, but measuring it, uh how much is in there, it doesn't really tell you how much how much is taken up. So we actually wanted to find out we wanted to find out how much is taken up in the body.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Okay, so how do you measure it in the body?

SPEAKER_00 7:46

So the easiest way, so that's that's where my sort of research area, and that's how do we measure intake? And the easy and traditional ways we ask people what they eat. But the problem of this is that if we ask people what they eat, they're not necessarily always remember what they're eating. So one of my research was is on sugar intake, and that was really the interesting thing is if you ask people how much sugar they eat, the heavier people are, the less sugar they eat. So you have this really strange result of high sugar intake is associated with low body mass, simply because people are under report. It would be great, you know, eat more cake and lose weight, but it doesn't work like that. And it's the same with fruit and vegetables. If you ask people, everyone eats their five a day, but that's of six, and then you measure that's less. We all want to make ourselves sound better than we are, like Oh yes, and and people generally forget, and then you sit in front of a strange person asking you what you're eating. You don't want to show off of eating the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

So and Yeah, like I eat dollars every day. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

And the easy way around this is you can measure what people eat in their urine. So that's what what we generally do is you take urine samples in the perfect world, you take 24-hour urine, and you have essentially what someone excretes over day. And that works very well for a number of things. Salt intake. If you want to measure salt intake, it's the best way. People generally don't know how much salt they have in their food because you don't measure it, you just add a little bit. There's a lot in the food you buy. Sugar works that way. And we've developed uh a method to measure flavanol intake. So we measure two metabolites of flavanols, one which has a very, very short half-life. So you eat your flavanols and it will be in your urine in about an hour or so. And another one which takes well about six hours because it goes via the gut, it's metabolized in the gut, and then taken up. And we can use these two biomarkers to measure how much flavonol a person has consumed. And that is really the way. So, what we've done is we've we've taken urine samples of these people, we've taken, I think, yeah, I need to remember. We've taken urine samples of these people and measured how much did people consume?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

So, what did you find?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Oh, go ahead. And that was really the interesting outcome. So if people consumed with banana, they it reduced massively the amount of polyphenols that they took up.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

That's concerning for smoothie lovers. But did you also find that if the banana was separate from the smoothie but eaten kind of around the same time, there was still less.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

As long as you put them together in your in your mouth, it acts. I think as soon as you you have as soon as they they come in your stomach, I think the acidity will kill the enzyme quickly enough. But yes, if you have them in your mouth. So sensible idea is don't consume bananas and berries at the same time if you want to have the flower notes. You know, some people some people have smoothies just because they taste nice and it tastes nice.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Yeah, and a banana is like a nice texture to a smoothie.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

So yes, it does help. I think it's sort of that the big problem we had after this paper was sort of people saying, Oh, you hate bananas. No, no, no, no, we like bananas. It's really if you have if you want to have flavanoles from your smoothie, don't add bananas. If you don't, you know, it does doesn't really matter. But yes, if you do, it's a bit of a problem.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

So do you put bananas in your smoothies? If you do you drink smoothies?

SPEAKER_00 11:17

It depends. So I I like bananas in smoothie. It's it's it's quite nice. But if I want sort of if I had a lot of berries and I love berries as well, I've decided to separate them because I think it's it's it's it's sensible. Although I do it sometimes. Well, you know, it really depends on the on the taste, and and you get used to it, but because you well, yes, the banana makes it more creamy, more what is the right thing? Sort of soft.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah. And you know, I feel like people everyone's like, you know, bananas, potassium, like bananas have a lot of other like stuff that's good for you in them, right? Yeah. So I do, like your study made me rethink my oatmeal because I put I like have oatmeal, I like oatmeal, and like sometimes put Oat Bran on it, and then I would put berries on it, but also I would add in bananas. And now I'm like, oh my god, I've been doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Again, it depends on why you eat it. If you eat it because you like it, that's perfectly food.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Well, I want the benefits of the berries.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Well, then it's probably sensible to to to separate the two.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Are there foods besides bananas that are high in this enzyme?

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Like I know bananas got the headline, but I feel like it could be banana is is is quite quite high, and I think banana is sort of the highest. Apple is sort of the next next high one, which is has only about uh 3,000 is uh well, it's about a sixth of of what bananas have. So bananas is is really by far the highest one. And of course, apples have the advantage that they contain polyphenols, they contain flavonools already.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

So isn't the apple like fighting itself?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Well, as long as the cells are intact, that's fine. I think that the problem is as soon as you as with the banana, as soon as you mesh up the banana, that's when the problem starts.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Okay, okay. So an apple's not like a contradiction.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

No. There are questions now after and and we the problem with all of these things is you end up with a lot of interesting questions. And the one thing is, could you stop the reaction? You know, if you add if you make it more acidic, if you add vitamin, you know, if you add uh lemon juice on banana on apples, they stop going brown. So could you do this? Or the when when you make commercial smoothies, because they use higher pressures usually, would this make a difference? So, you know, if one could start measuring smoothies, commercial smoothies and see what's in there. But yeah, we never we never got across to these these kind of things. I think we were we were also very surprised that that paper was so popular because in one way it's a very boring simple thing. You know, banana berries, they react, you don't got any. We'd never expected that it sort of got this kind of traction.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

What other sort of research did you do that? You were like, I can't believe it was the banana paper that got the headlines. It should have been I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Well, it's it's always, you know, there are big papers looking on the difficulties of dietary assessment, and I find them really exciting, but then then probably I have to accept that that's sort of a group of ten people who find this really exciting. And if you want to explain it to someone else, you sort of realize no people don't really find this as exciting as I do. But so in a way, with hindsight, it's obvious why the banana became sort of really, really popular, because it's it's a nice story.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, it's a nice story. But to your point, I think there is sort of like a general understanding that like self-surveys aren't the maybe the best way to you know figure out nutrition or what's the best or the healthiest for us. So I think what you're doing, like there's general kind of consensus, like, oh, this'll be cool too. Like, and this is what this person's eating, and like is this what's going into this person's body, and like measuring it. It's like adding objective stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

And I think that's that's sort of what what we really it's it's one of the big problems in nutrition is really measuring what people are eating. I think that's sort of where we really, really struggle because all the methods which are very detailed are at the same time very expensive.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Collecting urine samples, even collecting a spot urine, not just a 24-hour urine, it's expensive. You have to analyze them, you have to process them. If you have a questionnaire, now you can do it electronically. Now I I I learned this with a paper-based one where people typed it in. But of course, now I don't think any anything is done on paper anymore. So that's really quick. We run our studies where people use a an app and they put everything in and you can almost in real real time see what people are eating. But the problem is still we know what they tell us. We don't necessarily know what that what they actually eat.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

I actually write down what I eat every day. I still do it. I've been doing it for years. But I also write down like what I work at, like I have like a to-do list, like what I eat, and I, you know, work out what I do. And I'm honest about it, but I'm not like reporting to anybody, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

So you have sort of you you have a habit of doing that. But a lot of study participants don't have this habit. They they they suddenly start doing it changes their diet. So the a lot of people who start doing food diaries also they start to lose weight because suddenly they realize what they're eating.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Next snacks become much more difficult because if you have to write down a snack, you think about do I really need a snack? Probably not.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I love writing, like, because I feel like the pen and the paper just makes it more kind of like an intimate experience for me. Like it's like, okay, here I am, I'm actively writing and I'm not like distracted by my phone. I don't know. Maybe I'm old fashioned or something, but I think it helps.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I don't think a lot of I I don't I know a lot of people moved away from paper. So my reason to move away from paper is that I lose things. Um I'm very bad in keeping things.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

I buy notebooks and I just write I write in a notebook every day. And I don't think that many people do. I think it's like I'm probably a little weird, but I am weird, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I I I tried to send a notebook here and a notebook there, and then another one there, and then you forget it, and um I'm yeah, I'm not organized enough for that.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah, I just for some reason I still write things down and outline story ideas, but then I I do lose things, and then it looks my notebook looks like a maze, and I have to try to figure it out too, like a a treasure map from like the 1800s or something.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

But um But it's organized.

unknown 17:32

There we are.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

So your paper got a lot of media attention, and I'm curious, like, did you how was that for you? Like, did you get an email that made you laugh? Or or like did you read an article where you're like, oh man, this person really got this wrong?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

No, not well. Whenever you publish something on nutrition, you get sort of a set of emails of people who have completely different ideas. So there are a lot of people who believe that fruits are are dangerous anyway, and you should be banned and no one should eat fruits. They contain too much sugar. So you you always whenever you write something about fruits, you will be told you should never eat fruits. They're very, very bad. I mean, I'm sure you get emails like that from people who will completely disagree with what you do. And then write many pages about why this is actually, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah. I've I've some after some episodes I've gotten that. Um I mean, and I just let people let them live.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah. But the dangerousness of fruits is something I didn't appreciate before. So it's really something that should be locked away and not sold. Too much.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

But isn't it what what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Like what are your thoughts on? I think it's a little bit excessive because yes, fruits contain sugar.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

But they also contain things that are healthy. And we also eat food just because it tastes nice. A watermelon might not be the most important fruit fruit from nutrients, but if it's really, really hot, it's really, really nice to have an ice cold watermelon.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Watermelon on a hot day. I had yeah, just the other day. I'm gonna have it this week. Yes, so and that's how you guys in Europe survive with no air conditioning.

unknown 19:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

But I I think people are a little bit too obsessed with food sometimes and be too worried about you know, eat eating it. Doesn't it have to be that every food has to be the perfect healthy food.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Reasons why people like to indulge in food, and I think it's because food is so much more than just just eating.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I agree with you. And really, I go strawberry picking, eat strawberries, like I I like I I eat fruit, but I don't forgive me.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Oh yeah, yeah, I think I think most people eat fruit, but they I think people are very vocal. They they then these are also the people who then start to actually write. You know, you have to you have to sit down, you have to start to write an email, you have to think about it. It takes a lot of effort.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah. I just figure like it's a trend, you know. Like I I try to eat generally healthy, and I'm not gonna like kill myself over like the tenth ingredient and something, and you know, I I don't know. What are your thoughts on organic? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

I think health-wise, well, the first thing I have to say is I don't know the US food system well enough. And I think you have different rules, different regulations on organic and something.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

We have more chemicals than you guys.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

But you also have very different so the main part of the US I know is California. And I know very small parts of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah, like basically, okay, that's like not really America. I mean it's America, but it's not like America.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah, but I love the food dads. It's always very nice. But there the regulations in the US are just different. They're different rules, different approaches to things. I don't really know much about so all I can comment is sort of the UK version. I don't think there's much benefit here from organic from a health point of view. There might be in some ways of production, there might be more compounds in there because a lot of the healthy or what we believe healthy compounds are for made by the plant to protect itself from pests. So if you don't use pesticides, there will be more. But then in Europe, again, that's why I say I don't know how it's in the US. In Europe, uh organic farmers for some products can use copper as a as a pesticide.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Copper.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Copper, yes. It's the only one which is permitted for some. And copper is not necessarily incredibly healthy. So I don't know whether it's it's such a huge benefit. I think where where where I can understand people buying organic is is of course if they think animal welfare, animals are treated better, uh plants may be treat well, plants may be treated better, but less intensive. I I can see the reason from a from a more ethical point of view. They say, No, I want to do that. From a health point of view, I'm I'm I'm not sure. Very often, of course, uh good food is not just organic, but that there are other things as well. It's sort of some kind of special breed or something, and a farmer would then add organic to it as well. So, yes, organic is not necessarily a a standalone entity. It's combined with many things, but very often I'm I'm not as as convinced that it's healthier. As I said, there are other reasons to buy it. And I I think I would agree more with the other reasons than the healthiness.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah. I think and there's an interesting kind of like ethical production and you know maintaining the earth and like you said, treating animals well and that kind of thing. So I think there's a a movement for that. But what I mean, there's a lot of buzzwords in nutrition. And have fallen for many of them. Like, oh, all natural, all this, all the like, you know, immune boosting, that kind of thing. But I guess like like ultra-processed, that's one I think a lot of people can land on as not very good for you, right? Or no.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

That's where I'm sort of a bit about. I I'm not very convinced by ultra-processed food.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

You're not convinced that it's bad for you?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Well, I'm not convinced by the by the category. Well, I'm not convinced that it's bad, but for very for a reason which is really goes back to my actual research area. Because we can't measure how much ultra-processed food we eat.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Oh, interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Because so if you look at the questionnaires, so the Harvard questionnaire, for example, used, it combines so many foods, some of which are clearly ultra-processed, some of which aren't. In the UK, we have a lot, the majority of UK bread is made with a Jolley with process. So based on the classification is ultra-processed, but not all bread in the UK is ultra-processed. But simply by saying, well, all bread in the UK is ultra-processed. UK is high intake of ultra-processed food just simply by declaring all bread is ultra-processed. We have headlines saying almost all children get ultra-processed food as packed lunch to school because they get sandwiches. If I make a sandwich to my children, they get ultra-processed food because it's bread. And I think that sort of makes it really, really complicated. And then we have a category where we include sugar sweetened beverages. I don't think anyone disagrees that sugar sweetened beverages are not healthy. If you put this in a category, it's clear that the category will become less healthy just simply by by adding this. And and sort of that's my that's my problem with the concept is we have created a group of foods which are incredibly diverse. You know, we have fish fingers, which is fish in breadcrumbs, we have bread, we have soft drinks, we have any kind of multicolored sweets. And we put this all together and say this is all unhealthy. And I'm not sure this really helps to to create a better policy to make things healthy. Because if you tell people to avoid an incredibly large group, people will just say, Well, I can't do that. If you tell people, look, you should avoid this, this, or this is healthy, and this is unhealthy, it probably works better. But the main problem I have with the category is really we can't measure intake very well. It's it's really that that that boring thing. How do you know what people are eating? Especially because it's a group which contains so many unhealthy foods that we know they have an adverse effect on health. Is it just those foods or is it all the others? So yeah, bread bread. I I don't think bread really causes a lot of ill health. It's not really the smoking gun of ill health, but it's a part of ultra process. So is this really helping? Or would it be better to have a category which is sort of more focused on on specific problems? And that's that's the interesting question, which I think unfortunately gets gets ignored. And that is the processing in health. Because I'm I wouldn't be surprised if there are processes which are more beneficial and less beneficial to health. If you homogenize something, it's easier to eat, you're much easier to overconsume, which is shown in some ultra-process studies. But if you make a smoothie, you do exactly the same thing. You homogenize something and it's it's it's quicker to consume. So should we think about more specific processes or textures of food instead of having this huge category which which is so heterogeneous that you can't really easily say this is the problem or this is the problem. And I think that sort of gets lost a bit. And then these the there's sort of the other aspect is is of course the whole ultra-processed food discussion is also one about food systems. So that uh healthier foods and unhealthier foods disappear for uh from shops are replaced by other foods. And that's again a very complicated question. And I think by putting this all in one headline, it's really difficult to take apart. And in the end, we don't know, but I think that the big thing is we don't know will it be better to get people to eat healthily or not.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Geez, so with that said, everyone go out there and uh eat. Um, not sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

I think the big problem is really how do we convince people what a healthy food what a healthy diet should be? And I think that's that's that's sort of the the core problem. And I think if I had a solution, well that would be great, but I don't think there is an easy solution. We have front-of-pack labelings. I think the US started with very detailed uh labels of ingredients. I remember when I came to the US when I was young and was always impressed there was so much detail on a food package.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, well we even have more. Like, and then restaurants are putting like calorie content, and we're trying to get the new secretary is trying to get specific ingredients out of certain foods.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yes, that's that's what I said. The US system is is quite different from from the from the European system.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Well, it's and it's a massive interest right now in the US. Like eating real food has become a not like a national slogan. Yeah. Of course we have like don't uh there's people who don't eat carbs, there's people who just do keto, and there's all sorts of but a big problem is always on and well, we'll see whether someone manages to find a solution.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

But a big problem is has always been have always been campaigns to encourage people to eat more healthily. And I don't think whether there was one was what really worked. In in the UK, was it last year? The House of Lords had a committee on obesity. And I think they found I can't remember the actual number, but I think there have been 600 government initiatives to deal with obesity. And and none of it really worked. And I think that's sort of the fundamental problem is there are a lot of good ideas, but somehow they never get people to to really change, change their diet sufficiently. And I I I don't know whether ultra-processed food will just be uh another new idea, which in five years' time there will be something else or not.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

I remember maybe uh focusing on a villain, but you know, people are it may not uh cause people to eat healthy overall.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

I think that's that's the thing. Getting people to eat healthily is really, really difficult. And I think that the comparison with smoking is is is a I find problematic because you don't have to smoke to survive. You can easily survive without smoking, but you have to eat.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

You have to eat. But don't you think there's like some you know, people say addict like isn't there like an addictive property to certain foods? Or what's your take on that? Because you know, like you like I can't stop eating ramen noodles, I can't stop eating this ice cream and yes, but you can't stop watching binge watch people do binge watching.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Is it addic I think addictive is a complicated word. I'm not I think that's something I have to pass because I'm not a psychologist to know enough about that. But it's yes, and people eat for so many, so many uh reasons. I like to sometimes show in in in lectures a slide of don't you I assume you know Bridget Jones? Oh yeah. Where she eats the ice cream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, people eat for I'm sure she does not eat the ice cream because she thinks it's very healthy. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Just sort of the you know, sometimes it's comfort food. So we eat for so many different reasons.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

And putting on that this and you have to eat, you know, all diet needs to be healthy, it's really hard. I think food is food is so essential to to our life that it will always be difficult to get people to to change the diet in a very meaningful way. It's very easy. If you if you have an organized, structured life, it's easy. But as soon as things change, going on holiday. People overindulge in holiday. And it's sort of these.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

And as someone who's like super strict, like I I do. I have a strict health routine, and I like I cook at home, like shop at the farmer's market. I'm like probably a little bit too much in the other direction. But and then when you go on holiday, you can feel stress, like, oh, I didn't get my workout in today. So, like, what am I gonna eat here? And that kind of thing. So it can create stress, which also is not great for you, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Or if you're invited somewhere, you know, there's there's there's then suddenly food, and then oh, is it is it very rude to say no? Or you know, some people will rather eat something they won't eat because they think it's it's very, very offensive.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yeah. Well, and I stopped drinking, and but I that's created problems for me though, in like relationships, or if you go out to eat for dinner, you're like, no, I don't want to drink, and people are like, oh, come on, because it's like we're all partaking in this, but you're like, Well, I'm not, and then it creates like a social oddness.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah, it's true. And of course, food is is a social setting for it's it's it's used for m so many social events. And and people don't go to share a meal because it's healthy, they go to share meat because social, and sort of the and and that makes all of these things I find really, really complicated. Because of course, if you celebrate, you want to have something which is delicious. And unfortunately, most foods which is delicious is also somewhere on the unhealthy scale higher than than others. Or now if it's hot, people have ice cream. Of course they have ice cream, it's it's boiling.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

But then ice cream is definitely not one of the healthy foods.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

I eat ice cream, I do eat. I eat ice cream a lot. But I measure it, like I use measuring cups.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

But but you like it, you know, and ice cream, it's it's even the best ice cream, it it has flavor, it has sugar, it has fat. It's sort of the things which people generally like. So I guess what's your advice for people? Well, that I think that well, what what I always try to answer to this question because it always comes up is two things. I think the very, very boring idea, which most nutritionists tell you, is have a balanced diet. You know, eat different things. Don't always eat it, try new things, have a mix of fruit and vegetable, and and and don't just, you know, we're not we're not koalas. We don't have to rely on a single food. I think that's the one thing, sort of trying to to have balanced, not overeating. But the other one is also don't don't worry too much. Don't panic about food. I think stressing about food doesn't doesn't really help. It's not that if you if you eat the wrong thing one day, it's really disastrous. You can Yeah. Yeah. So unless of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

I mean I had an eating disorder for years, so I can totally relate to that. Like an obsession and like being deathly afraid to eat something. And I I had that, and it was very hard, super hard to overcome.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Oh, I can imagine. Yes. So it's I I think maybe we all take food a little bit too seriously. In in some ways. I think I think in yes, and I think that the I think most of my nutritionist colleagues would sort of agree with a balanced approach. And I think that's yeah, yes, I know it's it's a very boring, and b it's very nonspecific because balanced means something different for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

I agree with you, and I like that. I think too, what kind of helped me was focusing on enjoyment.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yes. I think that's that's equally important. I think that non-stressing or enjoy it, yes. I think it's it's this seeing food as as just something which is part of life.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

And like just being able like, hey, uh, like I'm gonna try this. Um, this is from this culture and it's enjoyable, and like it kind of like expanding how I view my relationship with food. That's what helped me ultimately and improving that. What are you working on next? Like you're doing research or you're teaching, obviously, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

No, teaching teaching is over. So one one big project we're working on at the moment is to look at which is a really interesting project. So UK is funding research on transforming the UK food system. And the question is sort of how can we change the food system to support people to have a healthier diet? And it's it's actually a really fascinating project because it's about sort of disadvantaged communities. How can we make food available that's healthy? But not in the sense of, you know, here's your food, eat it. But how could one change the food system to make this easier? There's a there are there are a lot of really interesting problems, supply chain problems. You know, if you have a small shop, if they have to store fruits and vegetables and no one buys them, they lose out. But if they don't stock it, people can't buy it. So, how can you solve this problem? How can you encourage people to try foods that are unfamiliar? So we we've done this at at our university that's our catering people did this in a really nice way. Before students had to pay for a meal and then they got a meal and they ate it. They would never go for an unknown meal because you know, I don't pay for something which I don't know whether I like it. So it's now sort of more buffet style, so you pay at the entrance and you can have as much as you like from everything. And it encourages you to try new things. And that works really well. So people try it and they know if I don't like it, I haven't lost anything.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

I like that. You know what else I would love to know think uh diets that are healthy instead of just the Mediterranean diet? Like, you know what I mean? Because some people maybe don't want to eat the Mediterranean diet.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

There's the healthy Nordic diet, which is a lot of whole grains and cabbages.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

But like there's lots of places in the world where I don't even know like what's healthy there. Like, do you know what I mean? Like here, oh let's just drop the Mediterranean diet on like this island and tell them to eat it. Like, well, maybe you know what I mean? Like it's like, but what's healthy on that island? Like, what do they eat? You know? Like there's I think that's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Oh, there are a lot of there are a lot of fascinating questions.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah. Do you think we'll find answers for them?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Some of them. And then they will be new. I think that the the fascinating thing about science is really you always get new questions. I think every question you answer uh raises so many more.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Oh yeah, I agree with that. But but food is very interesting, and I think that's a really cool project you're working on. Um I think it could it definitely uh could produce a lot of benefit for a lot of people and you can make improvements.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

It's it's a part of larger government program, but yes, I think that's the idea that you come up with ideas, and also that you test them and see whether they work. A lot of good ideas tend not to work for whatever reasons. You know, you come up with an idea, you try it, and you realize it doesn't work because of you know, people don't want to be told what to do. Or there's simple reasons why people don't do what you think they should do. Or you can't change the supply chain easily, or we can't so it's it's a really interesting topic.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Yeah, no, definitely. I hopefully we could stay in touch because I'd love to hear how you're gonna do it. Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Gunter, for coming on. This was really interesting. I appreciate it. All right, thank you everyone for joining in for today's episode. If you are a banana lover, I hope you're not offended. I love bananas too. Um, I eat them a lot. I just exiled them from the rest of the fruit after doing this podcast, so I'm gonna have to enjoy solo bananas. Oh god, I totally should not have said that. Well, yeah, okay, we'll just leave that alone, won't we? Anyhow, please subscribe to the podcast and stick around, rate it, review it, all that jazz. I really appreciate it. It really helps the podcast grow. Uh, please subscribe to my newsletter. You can do that in the show notes. And don't forget to check out the new sections of the podcast, Eek Speakeasy and WTF Health News featuring yours truly. And let me know if you like them, you think they're stupid, you think I'm weird, you want me to add more or ditch them, you let me know. You can email me your opinion or send it through the uh fan mail option. Yeah, I have a fan mail thing, and there's actually it's a fan mail option through the podcast. And the good news is that you don't have to be a fan to send fan mail. Yeah. All right, and now it's that time for the closing quote. And boy, do I love this one. This one is from Mitch Hedberg, and if you know him, you know him. And here it is. On a traffic light, green means go, and yellow means yield. But on a banana, it's just the opposite. Green means hold on, yellow means go ahead, and red means where the hell did you get that banana? Does anyone know that, by the way? Where would you get red bananas from? And for some reason I feel like I've seen red bananas or like purple bananas. I don't know. All right. That's it for now. Have a great day wherever you are in the world, and I'll see you next time. Goodbye for now.