Why Are Middle-Aged Americans Doing So Much Worse? With Dr. Frank Infurna

Why do so many middle-aged Americans feel like they're barely keeping their heads above water?

In this episode, Dr. Eeks is joined by Dr. Frank Infurna, Professor of Psychology at Arizona State University and lead author of a recent paper examining historical changes in midlife well-being in the United States and Europe. His research paints a concerning picture: today's middle-aged Americans appear to be faring worse than previous generations—and worse than many of their counterparts across Europe—in areas ranging from physical health and memory to loneliness and depression.

During the conversation, Dr. Infurna explains why these patterns are emerging, why they seem to be largely unique to the United States, and what they might tell us about the way we live, work, and age. We explore whether Americans are experiencing cognitive decline earlier or simply feeling mentally overwhelmed, how financial stress and "job lock" may be shaping health, why living farther from family could be taking a greater toll than many realize, and why spending more on healthcare hasn't translated into better midlife outcomes. We also discuss the challenges of interpreting these trends, whether today's generations are truly struggling more or simply more willing to talk about it, and what evidence-based strategies may help people navigate midlife more successfully.

Whether you're in your 40s or 50s, care for someone who is, or are simply interested in the intersection of psychology, aging, and public health, this episode offers an insightful look at one of the most important—and underappreciated—health trends facing Americans today.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why middle-aged Americans appear to be doing worse than previous generations
• Why these troubling trends are largely unique to the United States
• The growing roles of loneliness and depression during midlife
• Memory, cognitive health, and the difference between decline and mental overload
• Why education hasn't protected against worsening well-being
• The impact of financial stress, healthcare costs, and "job lock"
• Whether living farther from family affects health and resilience
• What the U.S. can learn from European countries
• Practical, evidence-based advice for improving well-being during midlife

You can follow Dr. Infurna's Substack here! 

Work with Eeks? Perhaps you are a good match. 

Keep Causes or Cures Ad-Free with Listener Support

You can contact Dr. Eeks at bloomingwellness.com.
Follow Eeks on Instagram here.

Follow on X. 

Or Facebook here.
On Youtube.
Or TikTok.
SUBSCRIBE to the Eeks Weekly here! (the bits not posted on socia media)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Cost It's Or Cures Podcast, your gateway to understanding health and groundbreaking medical research in a fun and easy to understand way. With Dr. Eats as your host, join us as we sit down with the world's leading doctors and scientists to unravel the mysteries of health. From practical tips on well-being to the latest breakthroughs in medical research, we cover it all. Don't forget to subscribe. Now, let's ignite our curiosity and together dive into today's episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Causes or Cures. I'm Dr. Ekes, your host, and thanks for joining in. So, are Americans struggling more during midlife than people in other wealthy countries? It looks that way. And if it is that way, well, geez, what does that say about the American dream? Right? A growing body of research suggests the answer may be yes. Compared with previous generations and with their peers across much of Europe, today's middle-aged Americans are reporting more loneliness, more depressive symptoms, poorer physical health, and even worse memory. What's especially striking is that these trends are largely unique to the United States. In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Frank Inferno, professor of psychology at Arizona State University, and lead author of a recent review examining historical changes in midlife well-being across the United States and Europe. We discuss what's driving these troubling trends, why education alone may no longer protect against declining health and memory, the role of loneliness, financial stress, geography, and social policy, and what people can do to help Americans thrive better during midlife. All right. So this one is an important one to tune into. Give me a few seconds here, guys, while I connect to Dr. Inferno. All right, everyone, we're connecting with Professor Frank Inferno. We're going to talk about midlife, the joys of midlife. But thank you, Frank, for joining in. And I thought we could start if you could tell our listeners a little about you and what you do.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. Always happy to chat about my research and its broader implications. So I'm a professor in the Department of Psychology at Arizona State University. And my training is in lifespan developmental psychology. So I like to look at developmental outcomes and health and well-being. From my focus right now is looking at middle-aged adults, but also looking at how earlier life experiences influence development in midlife and how development in midlife can influence outcomes in old age, so 65 and older. And I use a combination of various different methods and data sets. So right now I use a lot of publicly available longitudinal panel surveys that assess tens of thousands of individuals every two to three years. And I use data sets from the US and Europe and elsewhere to look at cross-national comparisons, but I also do have experience collecting um data and doing RCT designs as well. So a varied background.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah, yeah. What is the definition of middle aged? Is it 40 to 65?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Uh I mean, what we generally use is ages 40 to 65, plus or minus five or 10 years on either side. So I think it's depending on the individual, like, yeah, some people may be offended if you say it's like 35 or so. But I mean, I think a lot of what midlife is is kind of our life experiences and transition. So I think for me, when I became a father for the first time at age 34, I was like, oh, I'm middle-aged now. Like this is like I'm responsible for another human being.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah, yeah. I like that. I like that definition. Okay, so your study found middle-aged Americans are lonelier, more depressed, reporting worse memory and health than previous generations, which sounded like really promising. Um so what what's happening? What's going on?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

I know, yeah, I know. I mean, sometimes when I tell my research findings to my wife, who's not an academic, she's like, Can you study something more positive or uplifting? And I'm like, getting to that eventually. Um, yeah, so this was a article, a review article that we published in January, and this is a combination of our findings from different articles that we published. So, yeah, we found that generally speaking, right? Middle-aged adults in the US nowadays are doing more poorly than previous generations, and it's a uniquely American problem. So we had data from 13 different nations in Europe, as well as South Korea, China, and Mexico. And, you know, when we looked at the different regions in Europe, so like continental Europe, like Germany, France, and Nordic Europe, Denmark, and Sweden, we see that middle-aged adults there are doing much better. So they're reporting fewer feelings of loneliness and depressive symptoms, and they're fitter cognitively and physical, their physical health is better. And I mean, I I think it's the nice thing about if we just looked at the US, it you know, without the cross-national comparison, it'd be more challenging to kind of try to explain these findings. But I think seeing that these pattern of findings is not happening within the US, we can kind of at least hypothesize about some of the reasons, including differences in social safety nets and structural policies and cultural support uh for parents, but also middle-aged adults more broadly during this uh vital time in the lifespan.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Um we're so this is uniquely American coming up on our 250th birthday.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, yeah. I mean, why not doing and um and so what is it?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Like what what are we doing wrong?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Well, I think when thinking about it, I think it's you know what the broader findings kind of allude to is you know, middle-aged adults are struggling with the practicalities of of daily life and really trying to balance everything. So trying to juggle parenting with work, work-life balance. You have, you know, aging parents are living longer than previous expect uh previous generations. So, you know, previous generations of middle-aged adults might have just been involved with caregiving for their aging parents for maybe three at most five years. Now it's kind of extending into 10 years and beyond. And then on the younger side of the intergenerational dynamic is I think the cultural pressures of parenting are definitely much have intensified, and their magnitude is much stronger than say previous generations. And I think it's a lot to balance. You know, a typical day might involve shuttling kids to school, setting up doctors' appointments during lunch, and then in the afternoon, or checking in with your parents, and then seeing how your kids went, they went, and then bringing them to and from school or extracurricular activities. I think there's a lot, the mental load is certainly high.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

And so, you know, the Americans are more educated than previous generations. Like there seems like everybody's or lots of people are trying to get one degree, two degrees, three degrees. But you found that memory appears to be getting worse, which that's not good.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

What's what's causing I I think that's where you know the mental load comes in of trying to balance and juggle all these different balls you have in the air, whether it be trying to coordinate doctor's appointments for your aging parents or caregiving duties, but then you have your kids' activities, and then you know, work-life balance is you know, what is that even? Is it even uh possible that boundary between work and life is certainly becoming more and more blurred? And once you have this, you know, if can reach to the levels of chronic stress that mental load, and that can certainly imp negatively impact our our memory and just our overall cognitive abilities, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

So just like a mental overload. So do you think the European countries do the work life balance better than us?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

I think so. I mean, I lived in Berlin, Germany for two years before starting my position here at ASU. And I mean, it was a wonderful experience. I really got to see up close, you know, these safety nets that people have and kind of that work-life balance. I feel like I was always the one staying late at the office, whereas everyone else was kind of leaving by four or five. And um, and then the the safety nets of you know, paid parental leave, subsidized child care. I mean, just having that broad cultural support in the form of family benefits, I think, can take an ease off of your stressors, both mentally, but also financially, uh, seeing how expensive things are here. You know, with paid parental leave in Germany, you know, spouses or partners can share up to 14 months of leave at 70% of their pay. And then, you know, childcare is subsidized, and you know, you get monthly allowances to help offset the costs of kids. So I I think there's a lot of that. And when it comes to work, I mean, generally in July and August, people take extended trips. You know, I still have collaborators in Germany, and usually it's like a two to three week period in July or August where they're just totally offline.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah, and when they go on holiday, they actually go on holiday.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, it's they have their away message, and it's not like they're letting people know that they're away and then they answer emails. No, they're away and disconnected.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah, yeah. Americ America is not like that um in in many ways. Um, you're still working when you're on vacation.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Um, but yeah, yeah, and I think the what I remember this vividly. Like when I went on my honeymoon with my wife, yeah, eight years ago, I had an away message. You know, I didn't check email, I really stuck to that. And when I got back, you know, there's one of my colleagues who was just repeatedly emailed me after I didn't respond, just saying, What's going on? And I was like, Did you not see my away message? Like, I don't get it. Like, are we what's going on here? So yeah, I I think there's a lot to be desired to when you look at what other nations have.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah. So do you think we're actually experiencing cognitive decline earlier, or do you think it's more of being mentally overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_01 12:01

I think it's more of a uh being mentally overwhelmed. Uh, I mean, I don't think, especially since you know, successive generations are on average attaining more years of education that's strongly linked to cognitive functioning across multiple abilities. So yeah, I think it's this feelings of overwhelmed and just the daily stressors that just accumulate, uh, particularly when it comes to you know, financially, you know, so many people living paycheck to paycheck or living on debt through credit cards and having uh yeah, it's a lot to try to, it's a lot to handle simultaneously.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Yeah, yeah. And then probably it impacts your sleep, you know, you're like worried about your problems.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

So yeah, exactly. How can you really disconnect and unwind and um when you have so many competing things going on in your mind?

SPEAKER_02 13:02

So let's talk about uh loneliness. Um we we live in a hyper-connected world, and actually, whenever I sign in on social media and then I see everybody like with their hot takes and fighting, I'm like, I I kind of want to be alone, but like I'm like, oh god, this is awful. But why are people so lonely? Like we have all these tools where we're in each other's faces all the time. We can connect like with anyone, like what's going on there?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Uh that's a really great point. I mean, it's you know, having that immediate social connection is not the same as you know, deep, fulfilling, and supportive relationships that we can have with others. I think there's maybe a misconception that people think, oh, because I can immediately, you know, comment on somebody's post on Instagram or Facebook or you know, chat with people in in this way that that kind of replaces these more fulfilling relationships that we have. And I think it kind of shows there's been a shift in terms of you know how we spend our time just more broadly. You know, there it was interesting, the surgeon, US Surgeon General, the advisor report that they published in 2024 on parents under stress and on their mental health and well-being, they discussed data from the American Time Use Survey of how parents are spending their time. And you know, they're more involved in caregiving for their kids, but they're also spending less time on leisure, relaxation activities, and also being involved in community organizations. So I think it's a matter of where people are spending their time as well. So if they're not being engaged in the community, or you know, this makes me think of like growing up, you know, we lived in a cul-de-sac and you know, all the neighbors knew each other. Everyone knew each other, you know. We, you know, kids were generally around the same age, but you know, whenever you saw your neighbor outside, you'd stop, chat five, 10 minutes, you know. I don't know if people are still doing that these days, right? I mean, how many people actually know their neighbors? Or if they're in a you're in an apartment building or condo, like the other people.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Well, I talk to everybody, so I know my neighbors, but okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

All right. Um, but it's like little subtle things like that, like where you can that can really just those five to ten minutes can over the course of weeks, months, and years can really lead to something.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Um, sometimes I see the college students waiting in line for the shuttle, and they're not talking to each other, they're just staring at their phone. And I'm like, you guys are like standing next to each other. Yeah, don't you want to talk to each other? But no.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I know it's crazy. And like, you know, at you know, at the daycare school drop-off for my kids and pickup, usually we see, you know, the same parents, same, you know, because kids are in the same classroom, and it's like those little conversations, couple minutes over the course of a week, you know, it's like a 30-minute conversation that kind of builds up as well. So I think it's right, kind of, you know, what the scenario you described, it's people would just be more so buried in their phones as opposed to kind of taking in the world around them.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Addicting little devices, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Yeah, yeah, to say the least.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

So we might be, I mean, there might be relationships, but it's like the lack of meaningful relationships.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

I don't yeah, and it's I think you know, focusing in with the middle-aged adults, you know, we're strapped for time when it comes to just juggling. If you're a parent or a caregiver, work, like how do we you know, the stage in our life is very different than say, right, in college, or you know, I played sports growing up and through college, so I always had those immediate friends on my team. And then when I started grad school, I had my cohort that I started with, and we five or six of us just formed a a strong bond. And when you get to being an adult, it it's very different. You know, it's not you do have work, but work has kind of changed, particularly since COVID with remote versus you know, hybrid or in-office, and just feel like there's just less of an investment in our social connections and how we can develop these bonds with others. And you know, I'm not saying, oh, you have to set up a once-a-week coffee date or coffee meeting with your friends. I mean, even you know, once a month, but are you able really to engage and kind of talk about what's happening in your life?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Those are calendar. Social interaction.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I mean, it if it takes that, like why not? I mean, I I think yeah, I mean, it it it's whatever it takes to get that bond.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Like maybe we have to make an effort, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah, yeah. Friendships do take effort, which is yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

That's very true. So this one I found interesting. So you mentioned Americans are moving more often and they live further from their family, and totally can see how that weighs on a person. So, question to you are we underestimating how much geography or distance plays on mental health?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

I mean, I I I think so. If it's, you know, depending on your family background and if you're not living near family and you have kids, then uh absolutely, you know, one of the biggest life hacks I feel like is living near the grandparents if you have kids, so that you know they can develop that bond with your kids, but also just having them close by to help out if need be. Yeah, and I think it depends on kind of your friend group and like how you know, for my wife and I, I mean, it definitely took us a while to kind of find our friend group, you know, after having kids is um, especially during COVID, very isolating experience. But now I think we've finally found our, you know, our network and our and our core um individuals. But I think geographically, absolutely, and even not so much like if you live near family or friends, but also you know, the community that you live in. You know, in Arizona, there's still a lot of housing developments being built, and a lot of them are doing putting in pools, pickleball courts, nice, whatever it is, playgrounds. I mean, whether or not that's actually influencing and being helpful when it comes to social connections, I don't know. I haven't really explored that literature, but are there ways to kind of have that be built in?

SPEAKER_02 20:12

I think too, like as uh you know, if your parents start to get health issues and then you're in middle age and then you live far away, that's really hard. That's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah, I mean, long distance care of caregiving, yeah, especially if there's no immediate family. You know, if you're an only child, yeah, and you know, your parents, their health isn't doing so well and they're a plane right away, like how do you know what do you do in that situation? Move your parents out to be closer to you, but then you're lifting the, you know, taking them from their established relationships and the connections they built and what they know to you know, unfamiliar territory. But then again, you know, trying to move and find a new job can bring its own challenges.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

So, how much does this come down to money and Americans not being able to afford stuff?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Oh, wow. I mean, that's kind of a a big part of it. So I'm currently in the process of writing a book centrally on this topic and issue. So, you know, really talking about these findings we observed of how middle-aged adults are not doing as well as compared to previous generations, but also compared to our peers in Europe. And you know, we've kind of talked a lot about the intergenerational relationships aspect, and that's one major factor. And then another is the finances. So I think the you know, wages haven't caught up or haven't kept up with you know, just the cost of living everyday life, um, part, you know, especially since our productivity and terms of our outputs of uh in work has certainly increased and just look at you know housing has increased the cost of food um you know another big thing is education so a lot of people are saddled with student loan debt and that certainly is you know can weigh on someone especially since you know a lot of through the 90s and you know and 2000s and you know it's almost been preach we've been preached at about the you know importance of uh college education but now you know those jobs aren't as readily available and really the the cost of living hasn't kept up with wages right the word the phrase job lock you hear that in public health a lot or I'm I'm hearing it actually in non-public health circles too that's so like Americans being trapped in at their jobs jobs they don't like because everyone's like oh I need health insurance I need health insurance you don't hear that in Europe by the way no I mean are are we more trapped? I mean yeah that's a a good question I mean I haven't done as much digging into it but in terms of just thinking about it now I I I think I can see that particularly with health insurance you know it it is being tied to our employer as opposed to just being universally available through the government and yeah because I mean if something catastrophic happens and you don't have health insurance like what are you going to do? Like how can you really live especially given how expensive things are I mean I've you know I've had to take my kids to the ER a couple of times and I'm thankful my insurance is good and only had to pay like a you know $200 copay whereas you know I've heard of other parents who their employer only provides high deductible plans and they still had to pay like four or five grand for the ER visit because high deductible plan what are you going to do? You have to meet that deductible before right you know health insurance really kicks in. So yeah you may be kind of trapped or stuck in this job especially if you know it depends in depends on what sector you're in too I mean and kind of in terms of seeing what's happening with you know the I feel like with COVID and immediately thereafter there was like this boom of all these like user experience or like you know these data scientists data analysis positions all through you know the tech companies and then now slowly they're starting to trim back and kind of they've figured things out a ways they can optimize and there's only so many companies that you can kind of go to. Yeah yeah even less I guess now with AI right that's uh right and you know and not only those types of jobs but also good paying manufacturing jobs are kind of harder to come by you know my dad you know he worked at factories his whole life and you know we were able to combined with my mom's income you know have a a good middle class life and I don't know if that's you know we took one vacation a year and yeah played sports and could do things and I don't know how feasible that is now given how the nature of work has truly changed.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Yeah. So let's get back to healthcare because and we hear this all the time we spend more on healthcare than any other comparatively wealthy nation yet we're seeing worse health outcomes it just it doesn't add up it seems kind of crazy because we're spending a lot like what what are we missing what's what's going on there gosh that's like I don't know if there wasn't a a good answer to that hopefully that would solve all of our issues right I mean um I think just your thoughts thoughts yeah I mean I think we're underestimating kind of these other social safety nets that you know these other nations have and not only just the paid parental leave but also you know job protections substantial unemployment benefits as well if you are in between jobs or say you have a chronic illness that's preventing you from working you know you kind of have a safety net to back up on.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

And you know I'm you might know no more or kind of you know when we think of just how our healthcare system is structured too I I feel like you know in my experience you know when kids we go there very often but I always feel like we're we're rushed and it's kind of it's kind of on our own as an individual or family to kind of keep tabs on our own health or make sure that we're staying healthy. You know that it isn't I don't know what what I'm trying to communicate but it it's I just think every time we go to like the pediatrician or when I go you know annual physical it's like those like five to ten minutes I have with the doctor just feel so rushed and they're like all right what do you have for me? Like what questions you have okay your kid is you know here's his both start they're fine you know so we're problem focused not like right problem focused and you know contrast that with you know my wife and I we have three kids and each of those births were at a birth center with a midwife and we had a doula and gosh we each of our appointments with the midwives were an hour long and we were just like you know some days we'd be driving to the appointment we're like do we even have anything to say like I don't know we're like here we are we're just going along and they would fill the hour with just checking in on how we were truly doing you know how are we preparing for you know the baby and like do you have support systems in place and family who's coming to help and you know can we is it even feasible to transfer that type of a a model that person centered you know kind of getting a full picture of what people are doing. I know that might be in a fantasy world but you know even just you know blocking off 15 minutes like can we have 15 minutes as opposed to just this just always feeling rushed and that right you go to the doctor when there's a problem and not thinking about it as okay I'm like checking in and just can they provide more of a broader profile I don't know you know you go every before you go to the doctor for your physical or whatever appointment you always fill out like these brief questionnaires but are they really looking at them and are they asking the right questions like I know there are important things to ask like you know are you smoking how many drinks are you having per week are you physically active and then they always have you know a couple questions about mental health but you know what about your family situation? Like are you you know are you caregiving for others? How is work going? And oh yeah then it's like bordering into you know asking things of them as if they're a therapist but I mean it's just thinking I don't know just thinking holistic approach.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

No I get it I get it. Then I mean they have to they usually have to see like certain amount of patients a day otherwise they won't hit their quota and they have pressure on them too. I I do think there's room for some other professional in that system like a I don't know if it's a health coach or some kind of something that just spends more time with people.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Right, but yeah because like you know when I go in it's like yeah you get you see the the nurse first they do your blood pressure temperature and just check in and then you know after that you see the doctor and then that's it. I don't yeah I mean if there's some way to within that system if it's possible I don't know I mean because right you're right when you know back to your original question of like how much we're spending it's like it's a little crazy. It is crazy. I mean especially you know the health insurance company likes to send you the what is it the member benefit statement and they always you know this is how much you paid but you know what was what would be the cost of this if you didn't have health insurance and I'm like oh thanks like I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this but yeah okay yeah so well we we can't solve health care in in in a podcast that'd be great because there's there's just no chance it's just so far gone but so every generation thinks the next generation has it easier right and but your data suggests differently at least in this area where you know the today today's middle aged Americans may be struggling more.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

So do you think it's accurate or do you think that we're just more open to talking about our struggles you know it's more accepted to be like yeah I'm struggling yeah I think it's there's actual struggles.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

I mean I think times are very different and this makes me think of how kind of the predictability of life stages is kind of is gone. It's you know before you know previous generations you know you go to college or you know if you don't go to college get a full-time job but after college get a job meet someone get married buy a house have kids and then you live here happily ever after and you know maybe you work at one or two different companies but there isn't really that much of a shuffle whereas now it's you know there's a reason why a lot of adult children are moving back in living with their middle aged parents it's because they can't you know based on their job or their the salary at their job or they're just unable to find steady income they can't afford housing and how are you able to kind of go through these milestones when financially it's just you know you're not able to find a good paying job and it's just the cost of living is too high. And so even if you wanted to have kids, you know, you may be rethinking okay I wanted to have two kids well maybe just have one especially with how much you know thinking about childcare and then oh you gotta save for them to go to college and there's just I think it's there's a lot of unique stressors and challenges for these you know current generation of middle aged adults that are influencing these patterns and trends that we're seeing that might have you know they might have been there for earlier generations but that impact is not as strong.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

So if you could change one thing tomorrow or today that you think would meaningfully improve the lives of middle aged Americans what would it be? This is kind of what wishful thinking type of questions gotta gotta throw them in the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Is it too bold to say we should become like Sweden or Germany no this is this is your this is you so um yeah I mean it's on my mind a lot especially because you know how I'm structuring my book you know the first half is talking about all the problems and then the second half is trying to discuss and think about solutions and ways to promote resilience. And you know I do talk a lot about policy and I I feel like just structurally things are so much different here that make it more challenging and I feel like just paid family leave if there was like a a policy just one policy that I could kind of think of and that could extend to not only when you're having kids but also if you're a caregiver. So having extended time off you know job protection where you know say you're you know parent you need to transition them to a nursing home or they just had surgery that you can take extended time off to help them and know that they're gonna be all right instead of you know if your employer you have to take a combination of vacation and unpaid time off then you know that can really negatively impact your overall mental and physical health. And you know there are some states within the US that do have paid family leave like this. I think there's around 12 or 13 and it's you know for depending on the state it's anywhere from six to 12 weeks off and at you know they cap the amount either like 55% of your salary or like $1200 a week. So there are some within the US there are some states that do have these more favorable policies for middle aged adults but having it at the nation level oh gosh that would be wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Yeah it's a lot it's it is it's a it's a lot out there for people to deal with I don't I'm curious about your book. So are you or how are you right are you like at first your writing process are you enjoying that like are and and where do you have it like you know because some people who write they're like okay I write early in the morning or I write really late at night or are you on like a rhythm?

SPEAKER_01 36:13

I think now because I have a full draft I'm kind of like seeing like the light kind of but especially you know I've shared chapters with you know I have friends here that I'm close with that they're middle aged just like me and you know I've been sending them they've been providing feedback which has been great and then also my wife has been reading and providing feedback. So it's always good to get her perspective on things particularly when it comes to writing style it's yeah just that it's it's a fun dynamic to say the least but um in terms of like the rhythm I think you know having you know young kids they've certainly conditioned me to wake up early even though they're sleeping better now I'm still conditioned. So definitely the early mornings I would say so like you know this morning I just naturally woke up at 430 and I was like okay here we go and then I made my coffee and like once I have my coffee it's just you know my mind sharpens and I'm kind of ready to go. And I feel like a a great majority of this book has but definitely been written between the hours of 3 and 63 in the morning not in the afternoon early evening no in the morning and that's awesome. I don't know it's nice to have that serenity of the morning and knowing you know I'm yeah kind of have my routine and you know and you know I I don't know if it's quick or fast but for me I like to handwrite you know my first drafts of just if I'm writing an article or a grant you know with the book my you know I wrote down kind of like what my goals were with each chapter and then I let those ideas marinate and then I kind of started writing things out and then once I was at a good place with a handwritten then I typed it out. And even then I started the editing process and you know you just have to throw everything out there on the paper and and the Word document and then you just kind of yeah and it's just been continually editing too I think that's and you know it's I mean yeah you just I don't know it it's weird because you know writing journal articles you know you send them to journals you get feedback from review reviewers and you know it's yeah kind of an iterative process. Whereas with this I'm like yeah I think the publisher you know they'll go through it and copy edit and whatnot but it's like oh like this needs to be yeah legit once it's done like I have to like be sure of everything. But I mean it's generally been positive I think you know I just like thinking of ideas and doing the research and kind of seeing developing my ideas from them. I mean it has been at times a little lonely because it's it would be you know I was listening to um another podcast where uh they had written their second book but the first book they wrote by themselves and the second book they had an author and they were like oh wow I wish I had done that with the first book have a co-author because then you can like talk about your ideas you're not just like sitting with them and thinking oh is this good or not like I don't know and like he said yeah the second time through was a lot more fun because you could bounce ideas and actually discuss things in depth with someone else um yeah that makes sense whether or not I'll go through this again I don't know I mean let's just see this one through but it's been yeah I've enjoyed it for the most part and I mean well congratulations I also I don't know how much we want to go into this but you know I initially tried getting you know a literary agent and that was yeah lots of rejection and so I it's with a a university press and it's been good. I mean I've enjoyed it so it's a very still more of a trade at trade book but with the academic feel.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Yeah but it could it seems like it has appeal beyond that too. I guess depending on how you market it and that kind of thing. It's the spin right I I think that's the other thing yeah the whole oh gosh that's a whole nother animal yeah yeah it's the and when it when you go when you put it up on Amazon and I just know this from my friend who's a super successful um self-publishing author like the keywords and the categories matter a lot.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Uh for how Amazon kind of puts it in there. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

So all right anyways just let's take my could do a whole nother episode about that. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Yeah all right my last question for you a lot of people listening right now are maybe in their midlife and they're feeling like really probably down after this pocket.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

But if they're feeling lonely stressed overwhelmed or stuck like what's one thing they can do that actually has evidence behind it that could make their lives better? Like could they do something at the individual level?

SPEAKER_01 41:35

I think the importance of social connection so just you know finding I don't know joining a club just finding one way or another to interact with humans. And you know if uh you're a caregiver maybe finding a caregiver support group if uh you know going to the gym or joining a workout class even if you hate working out just being amongst others and you know over time you can certainly strike up a conversation and kind of get to know those who are around you. I I think there's just so much value in developing relationships with others and it's tough when you're in midlife because you're trying to balance and juggle all of these other responsibilities that you have but you know taking that those steps and being intentional about it I think can be bring a lot of value. And you know it may not have to be joining a club or or a group or just you know if there's someone that you work with you know just ask them you know grabbing coffee with them grabbing lunch with them. I don't know just something outside you know something different social that you know you can do.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

That's a good one. I mean that's something that somebody's in control of it's not like not something that has to happen at the policy level or you know right exactly yeah just go out and go out and make friends.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah try to or you know there's this one term that oh I love that you know the article was published on it last year friendships. So not and friendships more than acquaintances but less than friends you know with friends you know you may think you have this obligation to always be in contact but you know what the authors talked about is like this could be someone like say you go to yoga or you go to a spin class once a week you know the person who's next to you you just have small talk here and there and then eventually you kind of blend small talk and like real life things and that can happen kind of anywhere. So or you know if if you have kids who are involved with activities, you know sports, you probably see the same parents at practices or Or at games and just those tiny little conversations here and there can kind of build and accumulate into something.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

In the city, I see a lot of friendships like m at in the dog parks. That's cool. Yeah. Like that's a great place.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

I mean, that's an easy, great icebreaker. I mean, you know, and we have dogs, and yeah, I mean, it's a great way to just interact with others.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Yeah. Well, thank you, Frank, uh, for coming on. This is great. And um, I look forward to sharing it. When is your book gonna come out?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

I think sometime in 2027. I don't know exact month or those details. Um, but I definitely by the end of the year have it all submitted, and then yeah, sometime in 2027 it'll be out there.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

And all right, so our listeners check out the book when it comes out.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah, please do, and if anything resonated, I also have uh Substack newsletter, so just oh send me the link, I'll post everything in the uh show notes. Oh, perfect, yeah. So I'll send you that, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

But thanks, this was great, and good luck finishing up the book.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'll need every bit of it.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

I look forward, I'll I'll read it when it comes out, yeah, for sure. So it's I mean it's a big public health topic. It it really is.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

So yeah, and I've tried to blend in, you know, not only psychology, but right, sociology, public health, economics, you know, it really when you're thinking about these ideas, it's many disciplines are kind of at play here.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Absolutely, absolutely. All right, enjoy the rest of your day there and stay cool, I guess. I'll try to too.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

All right, thanks. Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Sure thing. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

All right, thanks so much for joining in. So, what do you guys think? Did it resonate? Let me know on my socials over email or comment on the podcast itself. Oh, you can also send me mail via the fan mail option on the podcast uh to say how you feel. And I just figured out that I can respond to those. Yeah, I feel like a dinosaur when it comes to stuff sometimes. But uh now I can respond. So if you write me via the fan mail option, uh whether you're a fan or not, um I know how to respond now. Yeah. By the way, a similar podcast to this one is episode 239 with uh Professor Irene Papa Nicholas. In there we discuss why rich Americans don't live longer than poor Europeans. Yeah, so that's a really good one to listen to as well if you are interested in these topics. Um, I mean, and this is really basic longevity. It's like longevity 101. And if you are an American like me, I hope that you know these types of conversations inspire you in some way to contribute to movements or do things that will help improve the situation for yourself and for others, uh the people you care about. Because right now, it's not a good look for us, right? It's just not. And now, as always, I'll end with the closing quote. It can't be the opening quote, now can it? All right, this one is from Bob Hope. Middle age is when your age starts to show around your middle. Ha. Oh, that's harsh. True, but harsh. Oh, here's another one. This one is from uh T. S. Elliot, I think. Someone said it was from George Elliot, so maybe I'll just say it's from an Elliot. The years between 50 and 70 are the hardest. You are always being asked to do things, and yet you are not decrepit enough to turn them down. All right. Oh, here's okay, here's one more, just because I love the middle age quotes. Here's one more. This is from Harold Coffin, a journalist and humorist. Middle age is the awkward period when father time starts catching up with mother nature. All right, guys. Have a good day, wherever you are. I think that was ending on a positive note. Was that positive? I mean, I guess if you have a sense of humor, uh, it's positive. And I hope you tune in next time. Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the newsletter so you can get the Eeks Weekly. The Eeks Weekly, that's the name of the newsletter. And I'll see you soon. All right, goodbye for now.